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	<title>Comments on: On the evolutionary basis of religion</title>
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	<link>http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion</link>
	<description>Pontification without all the gritty gravitas</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: El Besino</title>
		<link>http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion#comment-38582</link>
		<dc:creator>El Besino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion#comment-38582</guid>
		<description>Your statements immediately show how most people, no matter the camp (evolution/creationism/whateverism) base their knowledge on the thinking of others, rather than on their own self-examination.  You've pointed out the bi-cameral theory of Jaynes and the "collective unconscious" of Jung, and formed an opinion based on what you've HEARD from mainstream religion and have HEARD from the other camps.

That's "hearsay" knowledge.

Not that you are wrong; just inconclusive. In each camp there is someone who takes it upon himself to "lord it over" everyone else ("my way is the right way") and they can only do so by having proselytes with willing ears (oh, he DOES tickle the ear, doesn't he? Hee hee!) no matter what camp.

I'm neither for or against either posit; I've realized that Self (who "I" am) only THINKS it is in control of his little universe (his body) -- and becomes astonished when some other "self" within him gives a command over his body that overrides his "free will" (to which has been assigned the name "sub-conscious").  When "self" is awake, he is "conscious"; when asleep, this self is unaware of his little universe, and then another little guy (the "un-conscious") takes over.  Dreams of flying and great wisdom or primal fear occur, and the self, when it awakens, tries to make sense of it all.  Then promptly forgets all.

This realization was from self-examination (looking "inward" to use another popular term); and I've come to the conclusion that actually, the meaning of life is simple:  Love "God" (that is, that entity which we have defined as the source of our lives) and love your neighbor.  This means, to me, more than just tolerance of someone else's POV, but to help and care about those "we think" (because, after all, it is the conscious self which is trying to assimilate the universe into some semblance of understanding) need our help.

Pontification sometimes is just exactly that: if I were to "tell you" how you should live your life, I would be pontificating, and thereby trying to expand my control.  This is obviously seen.  But one, feeling threatened, would immediately point to the one stating something, screaming "Mom! He's pontificating me! Mom!" and thus summon help.

Your opinion therefore is valid, if not necessarily accepted by someone (like me) who "thinks" he is "thinking".  If that makes any sense.

Thanks for an interesting post!

El Besino
"Thy neighbor"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your statements immediately show how most people, no matter the camp (evolution/creationism/whateverism) base their knowledge on the thinking of others, rather than on their own self-examination.  You&#8217;ve pointed out the bi-cameral theory of Jaynes and the &#8220;collective unconscious&#8221; of Jung, and formed an opinion based on what you&#8217;ve HEARD from mainstream religion and have HEARD from the other camps.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s &#8220;hearsay&#8221; knowledge.</p>
<p>Not that you are wrong; just inconclusive. In each camp there is someone who takes it upon himself to &#8220;lord it over&#8221; everyone else (&#8221;my way is the right way&#8221;) and they can only do so by having proselytes with willing ears (oh, he DOES tickle the ear, doesn&#8217;t he? Hee hee!) no matter what camp.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m neither for or against either posit; I&#8217;ve realized that Self (who &#8220;I&#8221; am) only THINKS it is in control of his little universe (his body) &#8212; and becomes astonished when some other &#8220;self&#8221; within him gives a command over his body that overrides his &#8220;free will&#8221; (to which has been assigned the name &#8220;sub-conscious&#8221;).  When &#8220;self&#8221; is awake, he is &#8220;conscious&#8221;; when asleep, this self is unaware of his little universe, and then another little guy (the &#8220;un-conscious&#8221;) takes over.  Dreams of flying and great wisdom or primal fear occur, and the self, when it awakens, tries to make sense of it all.  Then promptly forgets all.</p>
<p>This realization was from self-examination (looking &#8220;inward&#8221; to use another popular term); and I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that actually, the meaning of life is simple:  Love &#8220;God&#8221; (that is, that entity which we have defined as the source of our lives) and love your neighbor.  This means, to me, more than just tolerance of someone else&#8217;s POV, but to help and care about those &#8220;we think&#8221; (because, after all, it is the conscious self which is trying to assimilate the universe into some semblance of understanding) need our help.</p>
<p>Pontification sometimes is just exactly that: if I were to &#8220;tell you&#8221; how you should live your life, I would be pontificating, and thereby trying to expand my control.  This is obviously seen.  But one, feeling threatened, would immediately point to the one stating something, screaming &#8220;Mom! He&#8217;s pontificating me! Mom!&#8221; and thus summon help.</p>
<p>Your opinion therefore is valid, if not necessarily accepted by someone (like me) who &#8220;thinks&#8221; he is &#8220;thinking&#8221;.  If that makes any sense.</p>
<p>Thanks for an interesting post!</p>
<p>El Besino<br />
&#8220;Thy neighbor&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Branko Collin</title>
		<link>http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion#comment-32211</link>
		<dc:creator>Branko Collin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion#comment-32211</guid>
		<description>Funny, I had just translated &lt;a href="http://www.tekstadventure.nl/branko/blog/2007/03/the-future-of-religion" rel="nofollow"&gt;a fragment&lt;/a&gt; by an 18th century German philospher for my own blog when something made a neuron fire and I decided to go and read Notional Slurry. Theobald Ziegler wrote: "The longing for the eternal with all the idealistic feelings it produces will always exist, because it belongs to man’s psychological inventory, and a progressing culture cannot change that." (He writes further that religion is an/the expression of this longing.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny, I had just translated <a href="http://www.tekstadventure.nl/branko/blog/2007/03/the-future-of-religion" rel="nofollow">a fragment</a> by an 18th century German philospher for my own blog when something made a neuron fire and I decided to go and read Notional Slurry. Theobald Ziegler wrote: &#8220;The longing for the eternal with all the idealistic feelings it produces will always exist, because it belongs to man’s psychological inventory, and a progressing culture cannot change that.&#8221; (He writes further that religion is an/the expression of this longing.)</p>
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		<title>By: Karen Lofstrom</title>
		<link>http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion#comment-32143</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Lofstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 02:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://williamtozier.com/slurry/2007/03/10/on-the-evolutionary-basis-of-religion#comment-32143</guid>
		<description>Uh uh, Bill, that's off the mark.   

I read recently -- somewhere, I can' t find it, dang -- that worshipping God is just worshipping Society. We take an ideal view of how things should work, how humans should behave towards each other, and enshrine it, with whatever historical/philosophical/mythological/aesthetic/emotional trappings are necessary to make it persuasive. Societies that have useful social ideals (and can motivate members to make nice with each other) have an edge over societies that don't. 

Whoever came up with this (and I'm sure it's just a reworking of the "religion is useful, for idiots" theme that's been around for a few millennia) felt that he/she had disposed of religion. Only an idiot would fall for that con. 

However, as someone who has fallen completely for the con, fallen completely off the edge, I'd say that it comes down to "how shall I live my life?" and that "whatever feels good at the moment, or just happens to be the dominant meme in the crowd of people with whom I find myself right now" doesn't work very well. It doesn't make people happy, and it doesn't make for a functioning society. So people look for something that IS worth making their life goal, they end up with something like religion. Because it works. Because it makes them feel better. Because the world religions are condensates of the experience of people who have lived and loved and thought, and offer something more than "If it feels good, do it" and "If that's what everyone else is doing, I'll do it too." That's not worshipping society as it is; it's worshipping a vision of society as it could be. 

It's a two-edged blade. Religion can be captured by the mob, the state, the plutocrats, and used against people -- but the traditions also throw up Luthers, Wilberforces, and the Egyptian scholar (I'm blanking on his name) who recently declared Female Genital Mutilation a non-Islamic practice. 

If I live to please myself, I'm miserable. If I live for the good of all sentient beings, I'm happy. If I'm captured by words, I'm miserable. When I dwell in the "don't know", I'm happy. 

There's been an upsurge of "religion mocking" of late, in which the target seems to be an archetype modeled on Creationists, proselytizing Evangelical Christians, jihadis, and murderous Hindutvadis. Why would you think that I'm like them, or that what I do, and what I call religion, has anything to do with them? 

-- 
Zora, Zen Buddhist</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh uh, Bill, that&#8217;s off the mark.   </p>
<p>I read recently &#8212; somewhere, I can&#8217; t find it, dang &#8212; that worshipping God is just worshipping Society. We take an ideal view of how things should work, how humans should behave towards each other, and enshrine it, with whatever historical/philosophical/mythological/aesthetic/emotional trappings are necessary to make it persuasive. Societies that have useful social ideals (and can motivate members to make nice with each other) have an edge over societies that don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Whoever came up with this (and I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s just a reworking of the &#8220;religion is useful, for idiots&#8221; theme that&#8217;s been around for a few millennia) felt that he/she had disposed of religion. Only an idiot would fall for that con. </p>
<p>However, as someone who has fallen completely for the con, fallen completely off the edge, I&#8217;d say that it comes down to &#8220;how shall I live my life?&#8221; and that &#8220;whatever feels good at the moment, or just happens to be the dominant meme in the crowd of people with whom I find myself right now&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work very well. It doesn&#8217;t make people happy, and it doesn&#8217;t make for a functioning society. So people look for something that IS worth making their life goal, they end up with something like religion. Because it works. Because it makes them feel better. Because the world religions are condensates of the experience of people who have lived and loved and thought, and offer something more than &#8220;If it feels good, do it&#8221; and &#8220;If that&#8217;s what everyone else is doing, I&#8217;ll do it too.&#8221; That&#8217;s not worshipping society as it is; it&#8217;s worshipping a vision of society as it could be. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a two-edged blade. Religion can be captured by the mob, the state, the plutocrats, and used against people &#8212; but the traditions also throw up Luthers, Wilberforces, and the Egyptian scholar (I&#8217;m blanking on his name) who recently declared Female Genital Mutilation a non-Islamic practice. </p>
<p>If I live to please myself, I&#8217;m miserable. If I live for the good of all sentient beings, I&#8217;m happy. If I&#8217;m captured by words, I&#8217;m miserable. When I dwell in the &#8220;don&#8217;t know&#8221;, I&#8217;m happy. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s been an upsurge of &#8220;religion mocking&#8221; of late, in which the target seems to be an archetype modeled on Creationists, proselytizing Evangelical Christians, jihadis, and murderous Hindutvadis. Why would you think that I&#8217;m like them, or that what I do, and what I call religion, has anything to do with them? </p>
<p>&#8211;<br />
Zora, Zen Buddhist</p>
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